When a 27-year-old Michael Lewis put his head down to write “Liar’s Poker” — the book that ultimately put him on best-selling lists and launched his dazzling writing career — never did he expect it to become required reading on Wall Street.

Actually, he was working on a completely different book. He originally sold a book about Wall Street’s history that concluded with him working as a Bond Salesman at Salomon Brothers. It was somewhat dry. He began to write about his experiences on Wall Street in 1980s frat-boy culture and reckless dog-eat-dog trading floors.

The book “Liar’s Poker”, which was a bestseller, had unintended effects. Lewis thought that the book would deter money-minded college students from going to Wall Street. But it actually did the contrary. The book was accidentally used as a career guide and moral guide by the big-money machine.

Lewis stated that “Liar’s Poker”, which was published more than thirty years ago, is still being read because it was the first book to show a uncensored and unfiltered Wall Street in its unfiltered form before public attention became commonplace.

Lewis was released Tuesday a new audio edition of “Liar’s PokerHe also hosts a podcast called “Other People’s Money” that consists of five episodes. I talked to Lewis about how Wall Street has — and hasn’t— changed since the original release of the book and why in some ways it’s even worse today.

(The text below was edited to ensure clarity and length.

Yun Li:Would you be willing to share your experiences with “Liar’s Poker”, as well as the surprising feedback received?

Michael Lewis:This was a fun story to write. It was fun to go back and reread it. While I had thought that I was trying to dissuade young people from Wall Street, the truth is it sounds like so much fun it did just the opposite. Like any ambition I had with the book having some effect in the world, it wasn’t like “I’m going to bring down Wall Street” — I didn’t even want to. Wall Street seemed almost neutral to me. Wall Street was not considered immoral. It seemed to be an amoral location. It didn’t really matter what morality was.

This first group of students coming out college felt like Wall Street had to be their next step. The pay was incredible, and it was really troubling. The next step was for the kid who went to Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Morgan Stanley. This was insane, I thought. All these youngsters are very bright, enthusiastic, intelligent, and have the potential to make a difference in the world. It was my hope that, when I finished this book, 19-year-old myself would see it and think, “Aha!” Now I understand what this all is. You can certainly make some money. However, it’s a silly idea. Sometimes that was the case. However, the majority of it made its way into my hands at 19 years old. They had no clue what their future would look like. This was what it did. I learned something from it. You never know who will read your piece of journalism or writing. Although you may believe that they have read your work, it could be something else.

Li:Even though they are a few decades old, financial jobs remain some of the most sought-after in the globe. The money can be a bridge to success, as it is for many young people.

Lewis:A little has happened. As a parent, I am watching. The other thing is a greater awareness of Wall Street. They do not need “Liar’s Poker”. This is not a job that is merely a way to change the world. They are aware of that. Second, Wall Street has changed. It doesn’t want me as a young person anymore. Wall Street doesn’t want a liberal arts professional who wasn’t sure what career he desired but has a gift for gab. This is becoming more technologically savvy. It competes with Silicon Valley’s young children, something that was different when I went to college. The competition has come from another space, which is real.

However, Wall Street is still able to hold onto young minds’ imaginations. Many Wall Street workers don’t find much meaning in their work. While they may find meaning in their jobs if they excel at them, the actual job is rarely a calling.

Li:Wall street hasn’t seen much change in many ways. The financial crisis was triggered by mortgage-backed securities. You wrote “Liar’s Poker” as well as “The Big Short”. Investment banks have been selling record-breaking numbers of blank check deals today, taking public companies that do not even generate any revenue. What is the difference between now and later?

Lewis:The public is more aware of how they look and less concerned about negative publicity. I would never have been allowed to write this book in today’s environment — to march into a big firm, sit in the middle of it for two and a half years and go write a book about it. You would have to sign multiple non-disclosures. It’s one of the main reasons this book gets read. People are able to behave as they want without worrying about how others might react. Wall Street has become a lot more adept at covering up and putting up a front. This changes people’s behaviour. There is no way to be sure that anyone at any Wall Street company calls strippers into their offices or is slapping women as they pass them. It’s just not possible.

However, deep down I believe the financial behaviour is worse. They’re very good at showing a polite side to the outside world. It’s not likely that Salomon Brothers would tolerate the reckless behavior and risk taking that led to the financial crisis. There were several instances in “The Big Short” where ex-Salomon traders tried to get their firms out of producing sub-prime crap. It was possible to retain the original attitude toward risk in the partnership, and it’s now gone. The pernicious stuff that goes on the financial markets now — the structure of the stock market that I wrote about in “Flash Boys” — is in some ways just worse than it was back then. It’s worse.

Li:What are your thoughts on the inside workings of Wall Street?

Lewis:After Brad Katsuyama’s brilliant explanation about how the stock exchange works in Flash Boys, it has been amazing to me that there is still payment for order flow and that these strange incentives are baked into the stockmarket.

A second point is that I feel like we’re living in a parody Wall Street. Meme stocks, crypto… It almost feels as if the small people are mocking the large people with their behaviour. This is high comedy for me.

One other thing that comes to my mind is the huge difference in money today compared with when I was on Wall Street. People make millions of dollars each year. Wall Street played a significant role in Americans’ history of social mobility. However, it has now become an intellectual meritocracy. Wall Street has become a more effective tool to prevent social mobility and strengthen existing relationships, than for mixing it up. Wall Street may be creating more unfairness in my opinion than I did back when I wrote, “Liar’s Poker”.

Li:Are you supporting the small guys (the retail investor) in the meme stock mania?

Lewis:It’s difficult to not root for the small guys. But you shouldn’t root for a team with no chances of winning. This is a difficult situation to visualize. When it works, though, it is quite fun to observe. GameStop goes up. I don’t sit there scowling at capitalism, but I am thinking, “This is so funny! I wish they continue doing this!”